Wonder what naive Sohkar will do when wallstreet bloodsuckers steal his retirement savings. Dude is freaking out over $20? Hopefully he sees a mental health professional. Real life is far more ruthless and mean then eve online could ever be.

See, when I read the title, I thought it had to do with him jumping off the deep end, and telling us all that EVE is dying because of Dungeons and Dragons.

Now to read this newest offering.

That, or some of us need to read between the lines. Either one works.

Because if you somehow think that an enormously overblown reaction to a teenage suicide in the 70s actually had anything to do with TSR's financial woes of the time, (instead of, you know, putting out a large number of poor selling products like Terrible Swift Sword, which took 3 hours to assemble, and 5 to play) then I have a bridge to sell you.

Out of game. Just as the recording was :)

You are, actually.

The point he's making is that the slippery slope of arbitrary bannings for something "distasteful" is FAR worse than the supposed slippery slope of "cyber bullying" that Ripard Teg is trying to make the case for.

I've mentioned this before, but I was actually stalked at one point by someone I "griefed" in a videogame. They sent me a link with a picture of my front door on it.

How do you feel about that?

Lol, "blaming the victim", right out of the mouth of a White Knight himself. Delicious.

The above highlighted sentence is many times more morally reprehensible than anything any in-game scammer has ever done. There is never any justification for out of game threats, period.

Blaming the victim.

You are blaming the victim in the recording.

Check

And revelling in others misfortune, thats pretty hypocritical right there.

It's interesting to see how Erotica's behavior is basically a carbon copy of school bully behavior. The bonus room is nothing more than a bully grabbing a kids bag (or coaxing them to hand it over under friendly pretense) and then making the kid do all kinds of humiliating things in order to get it back. And as with all bullies, this sort of behavior is magnified when the bully has friends who cheer him on (otherwise too scared to intervene in fear of becoming the group's next victim or being thrown out of the group).

Now any school bully would, at some point, be forced to stop. Being it a teacher who intervenes, other kids stepping up or the victim themselves punching them in the gut when pushed too far. But this is the internet. And if there's one place where being a bully is easy, it's the internet. No-one to intervene and the victim in this case is powerless to get back at you. No risk of being punched in the gut in these parts! Would that ability exist, Erotica would have had his ass kicked a long damn time ago and quit his bullying.

The only satisfactory thing we can probably take from this is that Erotica, in real life, is probably on the ass end of this scenario. Being the victim of real life school bullying himself in some degree. I assume he's still in school because I hope no adult person with actual responsibilities in real life does this (or any) amount of online bullying and gets enjoyment out of it.

All in all nothing about this shocks me.

1. Regular people tend to turn into massive sadistic trolls and ***holes on the internet because there is no risk of someone punching you in the face, ever. Not shocking.
2. EVE Roleplaying and 'he should have known better' being used as an excuse too justify bullying behavior within the game. Not shocking.
3. Naive victims in EVE Online who get scammed. Not shocking.
4. Those same victims losing all their stuff and either being humiliated or insulted afterwards. Not shocking.

I can understand how easily one gets dragged into a bullying mode though, especially with friends around things tend to go too far too fast. But where normal people look back a few hours later and go 'oh, sh*t, that really went too far...', there are sadistic children like Erotica who happily do it over and over without a sign of guilt or remorse.

Should the guy be banned for the scam? No. Scamming is part of EVE and he actually does a good job at running it from what I can tell.
Should the guy be banned for being an online bully? No, absolutely not. But CCP should make it clear that online bullying like this is unacceptable, period. There is a very distinct line between interacting with an in-game character and bullying a human being. And I would have no problem with CCP enforcing that line.

Anyway, should Erotica1 ever show his face at Fanfest or the CSM and someone decides to roundhouse kick him to the floor... well... I just hope he won't act surprised over it.

Emphasis mine.

So how about those death threats and racist slurs, then?

Bingo. Idk what kind of powerless, spineless person you have to be to think that hurt feelings equates to actual violence.

This entire thread is arguing semantics and bad analogies and should be nuked.

The 'victim' CHOOSE to spew threats and racial hatred over the internet rather than click on an X and end his involvement/"torture" in the bonus room. That choice right there is many times more reprehensible than anything Erotica1 has done in the entire time he/she has played EVE, period.

If Riptard Teg doesn't get removed from his CSM seat over this garbage then *I* will be cancelling my 9 accounts.

Not sure if it's been linked yet, but it seems it is starting to make the rounds on mainstream media: http://massively.joystiq.com/2014/03/25/heres-some-of-the-cyberbullying-that-happens-in-eve-online/

GÇ£Sunlight is the best disinfectant.GÇ¥ Maybe a little visibility and transparency within the EVE community and outside of it will be what does the most good.

grapevine. Or, people who know people.

Out of curiosity, is deliberately misrepresenting CCP communications bannable?

It's funny cuz this "bad press" is what gets subs.

Actually I will write to teamspeak, tell them their platform is used by online predators to lure and abuse victims.

Not a bad idea. See how E1 likes that.

I will also mention to TS3 that CCP does nothing to stamp this sort of **** out. Then we will see how TS3 reacts.

Some of the dialogue is hilarious. I draw the line at the picture taking, to be honest.

Considering TS3's user agreement basically ends at "don't reverse engineer this product", it ought to be funny.

Today I learned that stealing space pixels is apparently illegal.

What happens on TS3 is not subject to EVE Online's EULA or TOS. I think I said that. Let me scroll up. Oh yes, I did.

Im putting money on Salvos being Sohkars "wife" actually.

Until you cross a line and lure victims into recorded chat rooms, where you mentaly ****, abuse and victimize them.

Then CCP starts counting which way community is leaning.

And we are leaning towards permabans. We are also leaning towards real-life consequences.

Hands up everyone who can see a problem with demanding the CCP ban people on the basis of "They haven't broken any game rules, and they haven't broken any laws, but I find them personally distasteful"

This thread might last for DAYS?

Ill get my paint shop monkeys making more sheep pictures. We are going to need them.

Making it about something as unabashedly subjective as that, is fraught with peril. That being, it's a stupid idea. I have a stack of saved evemails that would enable me to ban/blackmail nearly everyone who sent them.

I know other "griefers" keep similar trophies.

The same amount of time you've been following me around yapping at me begging for scraps.

You didn't understand the /b/ references, newfriend.

As I said earlier, but you where too stupid to read.
Invite me to a Bonus Round. Hear for yourself.

Why if Erotica 1 gets assaulted then he can get some real world isk out of the exchange as well. Its funny how ACTUAL breaking of laws works.

What actual harm? Is taking a hit to the old pride considered actual harm now? Losing your space pixels? Being laughed at? Singing children's songs?

What "actual harm"?

The problem is that if you draw definitive lines in the sand, the boundary-pushers will keep sticking their toes over the line in an attempt to push the line further out of their way.

So no, don't expect any clear ideas of what is "kosher".

Yes. The EVE forums have built in a method to prevent you from violating Godwin's Law, like you just tried to do :p

Like the so, so many you've ducked in the thread so far? I agree.

So you are deliberately misrepresenting my words, with intent to libel.
Cease and desist.

He has an alt now named Edgar Suit.

Nowhere have I said I would enjoy his suffering.

Sorry what. Just a link to the criminal codes you said you provided earlier in the thread.

So you think it was right to call out Sokhur for his reaction (because that's what my response related to)?

Sorry, but I don't see how what he did was any different to what happens on a daily basis and none of it really belongs in interaction between adults in a game.

You do realize that, to enter a bonus round, that person must approach E1's isk doubling service first?

Utterly false. I myself have had my isk doubled by Erotica1 twice. It's perfectly legit, provided you can actually read.

The majority of eve players have hardly even heard of the forums let along this latest Erotica thing. They just don't care because its just not all that important.

---

And after you realize this, you need to ask yourself: "Why did Ripard Teg specifically go to all these lengths to start this up, long after the actual event had occurred?"

When did the world decide to create pansies out of everyone?

With this new term 'cyber bullying' being thrown around, I really am shaking my head here. When I was young(tm), people dealt with 'bullies' as a normal part of coming of age, on their own. People dealt with all life challenges in fact, without having to codify it with a marketing term to convert individual fail into victimization...

You want to know why some young people are killing themselves due to 'bullying'?

It's because they were fricken bubble wrapped since birth and grew up without having to develop any adversity management skills, so when the first 'big' challenge did come their way their brains exploded. ****, Johnny didn't invite me to the dance, I will slit my wrists in the tub...

Now I am not talking about putting all kids in the Agoge of Sparta, but what I am asking is aren't these well-intentioned idiots who coin pansification terms like 'cyber bullying' just making more life-neutered pussies?

tldr;
HTFU

There are real people going to sleep at night with empty bellies and no roof over their heads, but God forbid you white knight freaks of nature doing anything about that

It's kinda like holding a deck of cards right? Life threats vs ban? Which looks worse? Maybe a judge would decide wisely what happens to racist vulgar individuals.

Last one



No, It's funny to me. (<- period) AND he's stupid (<- we all agree there, no?)
Since nobody was harmed in any way shape or form, I'm confident in laughing about his hate filled little balloon bursting.
He is as much a victim of abuse as Chico, Harpo, and Groucho were on their tv show. In other words; Not real.

You find me creepy? I find you clingy. Good thing we aren't sharing bunks at space camp, because I'd prank you soooo hard if we would be.

D. OUT. (I promise )

YES.

Like I said, crying about "bullying" between two consenting adults in a videogame is a textbook first world problem.

Go volunteer at a soup kitchen if you're really so concerned with the plight of humanity.

So, I see Ripard's position STILL has no stronger point than "I don't like someone. Ban them, and harshly punish anyone who ever talked to them."

If I get a blog going, and post about getting someone I don't like banned, will that be enough too? Or do I have to be a CSM member before I can publicly call for someone to be banned because I don't like them?

Oh, and Ripard? I call for a public apology for your wildly inappropriate use of the term "Torture" to refer to hurt feelings on the internet. Your inflammatory language is what turned this molehill into a mountain, and no one here bears more responsibility for this bullshit than you.

Hurt feelings are not real harm, and are not analogous to real harm.

Hurt feelings are not real harm, and are not analogous to real harm.

Hey, here's a fun one.

How many gameshows fall under Ripard Teg's definition of "torture", in your estimation?

Pretty much every Japanese one that I've ever seen, for starters.

You know, I hadn't been decided yet as to whether I would vote for DJ FunkyBacon or not.

But his blog has been pretty much the best analysis of this, and is basically how I feel as well.

Take the time to read it.

http://funkybacon.blogspot.com/

Because it wasn't an issue until someone with enough puppets decided it should be an issue. The term is manufactured crisis.

Because it wasn't an issue until someone with enough puppets decided it should be an issue. The term is manufactured crisis.

How many of them killed themselves because someone took their pixels and laughed about it?

Unless those issues don't actually exist except in the minds of people who misinterpret and fail to analyse statistics.

How many of them killed themselves because someone took their pixels and laughed about it?

So, if I lose on the last level of Mario Brothers, instead of the first level, that's when I can get a free pass on making death threats and yelling obscene racist things? Because I invested time into that, right?

At this point Erotica 1 and his alts / sycophants will do just about anything to redirect attention from their little sadist circle.

They tried to:

start new threads
troll
shift topics
play whataboutism
**** on the issue of suicides in the military (i dont know why this is stupid)

All they did is simply dig a deeper hole for themselves.

BAN THE SADISTS ONE AND ALL.

Civilization, competition, fair play, social cooperation and the Rule of Law, or a clown show of immaturity,

What does CCP and the larger EVE community want this game to become?

Yes it does. It answers it perfectly. It's not even an analogy, it's an actual conclusive answer. I don't think you even know the meaning of the word analogy.

You want civilisation? You can make one, cuz it's a sandbox. You want competition? Create it, cuz it's a sandbox. You want fair play? Balance it, cuz it's a sandbox. You want social cooperation? Create the content that requires it, it's a sandbox. You want a clown show? Then stage one, cuz it's a sandbox. The 'character' of the game is created by the players. I don't need anyone to conform to crap because I'm playing my own game with my own goals. You should try doing that yourself and stop trying to get everyone to conform to your 'infinite moral superiority' and you might enjoy the game more.

The question itself is poorly phrased, because it limits EVE to only a few possibilities, but EVE is more than you give it credit for. That's why you fail.

Remember, when you aren't able to address their point directly, attack something you made up about *who* they are instead.

There's a term for that somewhere, not sure what it could be though...

Here is the potential problem right here and why I am of the view that no one should be banned or have anything removed.

I could totally support putting a line in the sand on the bonus room, but it's mentality of turning EvE into a totally different experience, removing what is unique about it from all other games and creating a themepark that prevents me from doing so.

Leave the game exactly the way it is.

People need to be able to manage their own problems and not rely on cotton wool rules.

Pretty sure that's Ripard's entire intent. He's not running for CSM again, his current term has failed to Trammelize the game, so this is his last attempt at a headshot.

Making it about something as unabashedly subjective as that, is fraught with peril. That being, it's a stupid idea. I have a stack of saved evemails that would enable me to ban/blackmail nearly everyone who sent them.

I know other "griefers" keep similar trophies.

Let me ask you something: what is a billion isk to you?

To me, its a nicely fit T3 or two. Or maybe a blops. I've eaten those types of losses before. And honestly, so has much of the eve community.

When I lost that much isk, I didn't cry, or yell, bang a desk, or threaten someones mother in impotent rage. To me, someone that demonstrates these symptoms has a problem. Maybe even a hardcore addiction as you say, idk.

The point is, such a person is not well adjusted, and you can't base policy for a community of hundreds of thousands based on the response of the mentally unstable fringe. Just my 2 isk.

No citation then? Thought so.

The fact that a billion isk can make someone loose their pride is no less a sign of mental instability or hardcore addiction.

We can take pity on the victim, we can sympathize with him, and perhaps we should but in the final analysis this problem begins and ends in the victims mind. You and I are powerless to fix it. If we could, it would be a wonderful thing, not just for the victim, or the Eve community, but for all mankind. But we can't.

Maybe CCP should put a big flashing warning sign on the character select screen that says:

WARNING THIS IS JUST A GAME. PLEASE DON'T HURT YOURSELF. WE LOVE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE.

The whole time you guys have been talking here, I've been mining alot of the Veldspar in low sec. I normally can't access.
I think I just beat you all at Eve the past two days!

In real life, people choose to go to casinos, even though it is well established that mathematically, the house always wins. It is a loosing game, but greed or other motivations lead them to choose to play.

So too here. Every step of the way, the "victim" had a choice.
He chose to get his isk doubled, though he suspected a scam.
He chose to enter the bonus room.
He chose to read the articles provided to him.
He chose to sing.
He chose to leave.
He chose to return.
He chose to threaten.
He chose to leave again.
He chose to return again.

You can disagree with his choices, but they were his to make every step of the way. At every step he could stop. And he did, not once, not twice, but thrice.

You can say that E1 manipulated him into staying and returning, but that disenfranchises the victim in our analysis. It removes his agency as an actor. You turn him from being a human being to being merely cattle, and I do not believe that is the case here. My opinion of the victim is not so low.

Erotica 1 has done neither of those things.

I do not think this should be about the victim's choice but the actions of the perpetuators and whether one considers them 'normal behavior' or not. The rest is gossip...

If you think this behavior is 'normal' then... I rest my case.

For you and all the rest that condone these actions, including Erotica1 and the gang, all I have to says is: what goes around comes around...

This is just going round and round.
Angry shouty brigade says "bullying scumbag!"
sensible people say "its a game not reality"
Angry shouty brigade yell odd words like torture! cyber bullying! breachs of Eula! bad publicity!
sensible people patatiently explain why thats not true and in fact diminishs the meanings of those words and insults real victims of them.

then everyone goes to bed and the same stuff gets written by 2 new groups of people.

Do you think that the 'victim' using racist and homophobic language, or issuing RL death threats was acceptable?

Both are in the wrong. No one should be banned just because someone 'feels offended', which is actually how this silly threadnaught got started.

"Grr, not breaking the rules but I don't like you anyway."

If I get a big enough lynch mob, can I get someone banned, too?

They're both pretty much the same thing. That's how sociopaths work.

Do you get a specific feeling when you so frequently post blatant lies on these forums? "Sociopath" ceased to be a thing a while back.

FFS! YOU CAN'T!

It happened a month ago.

You already have your answer. But Ripard Teg wanted a new one, so he decided to start a fuss about it.

If something doesn't dramatically change, EVE will only see behavior like this increase. As long as Scamming is allowed, there will only ever be more Erotica 1's in EVE.

"CCP, you should ban this person because I do not like them despite the fact that they have done nothing against the rules"

You just managed to miss the sole purpose of all explicitly stated rules everywhere in all of the past, present and future.

Kudos.

That is literally how a game works.

So, was it the Disney song, the reading of the CODE, the Wikipedia entries? Which of those is bullying? I am literally dying to know, so if you don't provide a clear and cogent response, you're torturing me.

That is demonstrably a lie. I have at no point anywhere claimed to be a lawyer.

glorifying bullying others isn't against the rules though.

"I don't like people glorifying bullying"
"Ban players whose only purpose is to glorify bullying others"

ergo

"Ban players that I don't like"

To say otherwise would be to infer that you like people who glorify bullying.

]He edited it out a while back when I pointed out that it's illegal to claim to be a lawyer in most developed nations.

Says the guy with the friend throwing out N.a.z.i analogies....
You just went full ******.

Remember guys, if he loses, I get that stuff, so put him through the wringer. I want freaking Lady Gaga and everything!

That, or I just don't like lynch mobs summoned up by Ripard Teg.

But we recognize the fact that not only was what Sohkar did worse than anything Erotica1 did or could have done to precipitate it, but also the response of the enraged portion of the community (asking for his expulsion and wishing physical violence on him) is also worse than what Erotcia1 does.

So, it's ok to spew death threats and obscenely racist statements as long as someone on the internet made you mad?

Provocation does not equal vindication. Especially when the "provocation" is as flimsy as this.

There is no justification for wanting to see erotica1 hurt so that you can laugh at it.

Period.

Hurt feelings are not real harm.

You have to say "The correct answer is ______." so that he can then ask you "Where is that written so I can look it up?" and then let him lead you on and on to the insinuation he wants to create.